Human Nurture

Ron and Chakahier: (Second Interview - Part2) How does a couples therapist help a couple with drift?

A NOTE FROM JASON:

Hi there, I'm Jason Brand, I'm a couples therapist out of Berkeley, California and this is the Human Nurture Podcast. Going to keep this intro brief to get you quickly to the second half of the Ron and Chakaheir episode. If you're just jumping in now, please go back an episode and check the first half.

Going to pick this up at that place where we left off last time, the couple was describing how they, "shut it down" and "withdraw". Thanks so much for tuning-in.

ABOUT SEASON 2 of HUMAN NURTURE:

Hosted by Jason Brand, LCSW a practicing couples therapist in Berkeley, California.  

In Season 2 of Human Nurture we will cover PACT in Training.  PACT stands for a Psychobiological Approach to Couples Therapy and has a reputation for effectively helping the most challenging situations that come up between couples.  

This season, we will answer the question, "How does a couples therapist learn to help with THAT?!?"  

"THAT?!?" could be any challenge that a couple brings into counseling-- from infidelity, to arguments about money, to processing past trauma, to decisions about the health and well being of a child. 

This season gives an insider's view to the world of couples therapy through interviews with actual couples and consultation interviews with other expert PACT therapists.  If you are a couples therapist looking to sharpen your skills, or if you are just curious about how couples therapists learn to do their job, tune into this season of Human Nurture. 

Ron and Chakahier: (Second Interview - Part1) How does a couples therapist help a couple with drift?

A NOTE FROM JASON:

This is Human Nurture. I'm Jason brand, a psychotherapist in Berkeley, and the podcast covers the head-scratching question of how does a couples therapist learns to do that?

A few episodes back, you met Ron and Chakahier. They're out of the Southern part of the United States and they've established separate domains inside their home. Ron's home-life happens inside the den while Chakahier's takes place in the bedroom. In that first interview, they described how two people, that desire connection and are just down the hallway from each other can struggle to come together without walking on eggshells and creating hurt feelings.

So today, what you're going to hear is the first half of my follow-up interview with Ron and Chakahier.  You get a real sense that between interviews they worked hard to find each other. and in this interview, you really can feel into the ebb and flow of them daring to be more vulnerable with their feelings, and then pulling back into fears and frustrations (totally a natural part of the process).

One note: In the interview, I'm in my office in Berkeley and they're in a hotel room in Cincinnati. They are there for a funeral. You'll hear various things going on as they navigate family stuff- family business and family needs. so we make room for that and then come back to the work.

I think that's all you need for today. Thank you for listening and away we go.

 

Ron and Chakahier: Producer Interview2 with Margaret Martin, LCSW, SEP

A NOTE FROM JASON:

Hi there.  Ready to get prepped for another clinical interview with Ron and Chakaher?  Well, this is the place.

What you're about to hear is a conversation with my producer, Margaret Martin. You will recognize Margaret from a couple of episodes back, she's a wonderful PACT 3 therapists out of Austin, Texas,

In this episode, Margaret helps me to get ready for my follow-up interview with Ron and Chakahier. They are a couple out of Alabama. They have been married 33 years and have vibrant lives, however, inside their home they've drifted apart.

Margaret's going to me set to sit with the natural vicissitudes of a couple who has drifted apart by helping them be in the room together as they navigate being close and then drifting apart.

Margaret does a great job of sparking curiosity inside of me. I'm going to then turn around, in the coming up episode, and spark curiosity inside of Ron and Chakahier. Thank you so much for tuning-in.  JB

 

ABOUT SEASON 2 of HUMAN NURTURE:

Hosted by Jason Brand, LCSW a practicing couples therapist in Berkeley, California.  

In Season 2 of Human Nurture we will cover PACT in Training.  PACT stands for a Psychobiological Approach to Couples Therapy and has a reputation for effectively helping the most challenging situations that come up between couples.  

This season, we will answer the question, "How does a couples therapist learn to help with THAT?!?"  

"THAT?!?" could be any challenge that a couple brings into counseling-- from infidelity, to arguments about money, to processing past trauma, to decisions about the health and well being of a child. 

This season gives an insider's view to the world of couples therapy through interviews with actual couples and consultation interviews with other expert PACT therapists.  If you are a couples therapist looking to sharpen your skills, or if you are just curious about how couples therapists learn to do their job, tune into this season of Human Nurture. 

 

Ron and Chakahier: Consultation with John Guy, MA, LMHC

A NOTE FROM JASON:

Hi again. In this episode I’ve got my colleague, John Guy along with me to reflect on the Ron and Chakahier initial couple clinical interview.  John hails out of Seattle and he has a private practice seeing couples, a background in facilitating groups focused on race and gender and is a practicing Buddhist.

I called John because I was looking for someone who is both a PACT trained therapist and could help me to think about issues of race and gender in couples therapy.  John delivers on both of these fronts and made a number of comments in this interview that are gems of perspective on couples and just being a good human being.  Comments that keep popping into my mind as I go about my days since we spoke .  So take a listen and let me know what you think, jason@jasonbrand.com

ABOUT SEASON 2 of HUMAN NURTURE:

Hosted by Jason Brand, LCSW a practicing couples therapist in Berkeley, California.  

In Season 2 of Human Nurture we will cover PACT in Training.  PACT stands for a Psychobiological Approach to Couples Therapy and has a reputation for effectively helping the most challenging situations that come up between couples.  

This season, we will answer the question, "How does a couples therapist learn to help with THAT?!?"  

"THAT?!?" could be any challenge that a couple brings into counseling-- from infidelity, to arguments about money, to processing past trauma, to decisions about the health and well being of a child. 

This season gives an insider's view to the world of couples therapy through interviews with actual couples and consultation interviews with other expert PACT therapists.  If you are a couples therapist looking to sharpen your skills, or if you are just curious about how couples therapists learn to do their job, tune into this season of Human Nurture. 

Ron and Chakahier: How does a couples therapist help a couple that has drifted apart?

A NOTE FROM JASON:

I'm excited to introduce to you our second couple of the season, Ron and Chakahier.  I suggest that you go back an episode and listen to the 10 minute introduction that I did with my producer, Margaret Martin, to get situated for this interview. 

This is the first of three interviews that I did with Ron and Chakahier and of course there will be a bunch of expert PACT consultant interviews along the way. 

I'd love to hear from you!  You can let me know what you think - jason@jasonbrand.com.  Thanks for listening, JB

ABOUT SEASON 2 of HUMAN NURTURE:

Hosted by Jason Brand, LCSW a practicing couples therapist in Berkeley, California.  

In Season 2 of Human Nurture we will cover PACT in Training.  PACT stands for a Psychobiological Approach to Couples Therapy and has a reputation for effectively helping the most challenging situations that come up between couples.  

This season, we will answer the question, "How does a couples therapist learn to help with THAT?!?"  

"THAT?!?" could be any challenge that a couple brings into counseling-- from infidelity, to arguments about money, to processing past trauma, to decisions about the health and well being of a child. 

This season gives an insider's view to the world of couples therapy through interviews with actual couples and consultation interviews with other expert PACT therapists.  If you are a couples therapist looking to sharpen your skills, or if you are just curious about how couples therapists learn to do their job, tune into this season of Human Nurture. 

Ron and Chakahier: Producer Introduction with Margaret Martin, LCSW, SEP

A NOTE FROM JASON:

Hello and welcome to our second couple deep dive of the season!  

This season we are asking the question-- How does a couples therapist learn to do that?!?

To introduce the second couple of the season, my producer for this leg of the journey Margaret Martin joins me.  Margaret is out of Austin Texas and she’s a level 3 PACT therapist.  She's also well versed in ISTDP, EMDR and SE. Don’t let the alphabet soup of modalities confuse you, she’s down to earth, she has a common sense approach and she gives you a genuine feel of someone who loves her job and the craft of psychotherapy.

We thought it would be good to give you an overview, a kind “what to listen for” in the upcoming Ron and Chakahier first clinical interview.  The question that we get you set for is “How does a couples therapist learn to help a couple that has drifted apart?”  

Please leave a 5star review on apple podcasts, recommend this to your friends and family and reach out if you have something to share.

Bart and Susan: Producer Wrap-up with Carolyn Sharp, LiCSW

A NOTE FROM JASON:

Greetings, this is the final episode of the first leg of this three part journey. Today we wrap up with our first couple Bart and Susan.  

In this first series of episodes, there has been a conversation going on behind the scenes with my producer Carolyn Sharp. The conversation has been about not only the content of what you have heard so far but also a more general conversation about this nascent podcast.

Carolyn is a level 3 PACT therapist out of Seattle, Washington and like I say at the end of the episode, she is one of my go-to people for honest truth. She does it with humor and humility and I have so appreciated her insights in bringing you these episodes.  

So, as we say goodbye to Bart and Susan and get ready to move on to the next couple, Carolyn and I thought that it would be good to give you a sense of the behind the scenes conversation and talk more generally about the process of making these episodes.  

A listening note for those who are keeping score at home:

The question I am answering this season is of course-- “How does a couples therapist learn to do that?!?”   And over the course of the Bart and Susan interviews this question has evolved and been refined.

It began with the issue as Bart and Susan initially presented it:
-- How does a couples therapist learn to deal with differences around money, time and work within a couple?
Then after the first clinical interview it became:
-- How does a couples therapist learn to manage feelings of inadequacy in a couple?
And, then in the final interview with Bart and Susan:
-- How does a couples therapist learn to navigate a void that has developed in a couple?

In this episode, we refine the question further to:
-- How does a couples therapist learn to help a couple that presents with one person who is over functioning and the other who is under functioning?

Hint:  It’s not as simple as getting the under functioning person to just function better.  I like this as the final question for Bart and Susan because it seems to hold the complexity of their struggles  and has a logical simplicity.  

Try it on for size and let me know what you think.

Bart and Susan: Consultation with Debbie Campbell, LMFT

A NOTE FROM JASON:

Hello!  So we are beginning to wrap up our time with the first couple of the season, Bart and Susan.  What you are about to hear is a consultation interview with my level 3 PACT colleague, Debbie Campbell out of Dallas Texas.  

I don’t know if I’ve ever read a list of a persons background that better describes their clinical style and approach than Debbie’s.  She a student and practitioner of sport psychology, positive psychology, couples counseling, psychodrama, and neuroscience.  You’ll hear it in her, she’s like a performance athlete, personal trainer, PACT expert and brain nerd with real warmth and compassion all in one package.  

I came to Debbie with a big question:  How does a couples therapist learn to use the patterns of arousal regulation and understanding of developmental neuroscience to create safer and more secure relationships?  If that just sounds like confusing jargon, well you are in the right place to make it all a whole lot more clear.  

One note, in listening back to the interview, we talk a great deal about pacing.  How fast or slow should a therapist go in couples therapy.  I think what we are really talking about but don’t name directly is pressure- so we also focus on -  How does a couples therapist know how much pressure to apply to bring about change in a couple?  The answer to this has lots to do with arousal and neuroscience and attachment.  So, hold onto your hat, it's an action packed episode that  I hope you enjoy!  JB

ABOUT SEASON 2 of HUMAN NURTURE:

Hosted by Jason Brand, LCSW a practicing couples therapist in Berkeley, California.  

In Season 2 of Human Nurture we will cover PACT in Training.  PACT stands for a Psychobiological Approach to Couples Therapy and has a reputation for effectively helping the most challenging situations that come up between couples.  

This season, we will answer the question, "How does a couples therapist learn to help with THAT?!?"  

"THAT?!?" could be any challenge that a couple brings into counseling-- from infidelity, to arguments about money, to processing past trauma, to decisions about the health and well being of a child. 

This season gives an insider's view to the world of couples therapy through interviews with actual couples and consultation interviews with other expert PACT therapists.  If you are a couples therapist looking to sharpen your skills, or if you are just curious about how couples therapists learn to do their job, tune into this season of Human Nurture. 

 

Bart and Susan: Consultation with Melissa Ferrari, PACFA Registered & AARC Registered

A NOTE FROM JASON:

Hello from Berkeley-  We all know the therapy cliches about how we end up marrying our parents or how our early childhoods lay out the behavior patterns of our functioning as adults.  The cliches are true-- one way that we learn to help couples is by understanding models of human development and early relationship patterns.  

The therapists who has a deep understanding of the science of attachment and utilizes it well to help couples can heal old attachment wounds and move development forward.  It’s a powerful tool.  So This episode answers the question... How does a couples therapist learn how to connect early attachment to the current day challenges that couples face?!  

I am very fortunate to have a rock-solid consultant for this dive into attachment.  My fellow PACT couples therapist Melissa Ferrari.  Melissa is based in Australia and her curiosity and enthusiasm for helping couples is infectious.  

I want to pull out a quote from the episode that really stuck with me, Melissa asks- “How does this couple lay together, knowing we both feel inadequate together and that's okay?”  If you have been following along this far you will know that “this couple” is Bart and Susan and that addressing feelings of inadequacy has been one of the main themes and struggles in the interviews.  

Melissa asks us to imagine how couples therapy could build a safe enough container for Bart and Susan to share their feelings of inadequacy about being deeply dependent upon each other as a way to move the relationship forward.  It’s really a beautiful way to frame their challenges and it rests on a solid foundation of helping to heal old attachment wounds through building safety and security in Bart and Susan’s current relationship.  To me, it very moving, exciting  and poetic.  I hope you feel the same when you take a listen.  JB

ABOUT SEASON 2 of HUMAN NURTURE:

Hosted by Jason Brand, LCSW a practicing couples therapist in Berkeley, California.  

In Season 2 of Human Nurture we will cover PACT in Training.  PACT stands for a Psychobiological Approach to Couples Therapy and has a reputation for effectively helping the most challenging situations that come up between couples.  

This season, we will answer the question, "How does a couples therapist learn to help with THAT?!?"  

"THAT?!?" could be any challenge that a couple brings into counseling-- from infidelity, to arguments about money, to processing past trauma, to decisions about the health and well being of a child. 

This season gives an insider's view to the world of couples therapy through interviews with actual couples and consultation interviews with other expert PACT therapists.  If you are a couples therapist looking to sharpen your skills, or if you are just curious about how couples therapists learn to do their job, tune into this season of Human Nurture. 

Bart and Susan: (Second Interview - Part2) How does a couples therapist help a couple to find each other in the void?

A NOTE FROM JASON:

Hey, I hope you got a chance to listen to the first half of the second interview with Bart and Susan.  Just in case you are not up to speed, Bart and Susan are an engaged couple in their 50’s who have been together for 3 years.  They face challenges around, “money, work and time” that keep them from moving securely towards marriage. 

In this second interview you get a real sense of how Bart’s enthusiasm and Susan’s thoughtfulness act as the glue that brought them together.  The challenge is that these very strengths appear quite different under the microscope of depending deeply on each other.  

Susan’s thoughtfulness comes with worry and Bart’s enthusiasm lacks follow through.This worked well enough when they were on their own, now they realize that they are going to need to learn together how to become a thoughtful and enthusiastic team.  In order to do this, Bart is learning how to better hold worry and Susan is learning how to better hold enthusiasm.  (Notice the many times in this interview Bart presents to Susan how he is trying to be more thoughtful and Susan tries to hold onto his enthusiasm.)

In order to grow in these ways, they have to stop the patterns that led to going into destructive self protective places. Susan has to slow her worry about her future with Bart and he has to slow his over promising without organization and follow through.  They are both happy to report that they have stopped themselves from going into some of these old patterns but not functioning in these ways also leaves a void between them.

Finding a way to help the couple venture into that void and experience, “a gentle unfolding of the soul” (as Rob Fisher put it in Season 1 - Episode 11) is the job of the couples therapist.  How do you learn to do that?!? Well, take a listen to my clinical interview and then listen to my two follow up interviews (arriving next month) with Melissa Ferrari and Debbie Campbell as we take up that very question.

Thank you for tuning in and I hope you enjoy.