Human Nurture

Yael and Charley: Consultation with Patricia Hart, PhD

Hi there. Welcome to Human Nurture. I'm your host Jason Brand a practicing couples therapist in Berkeley, California. 

This season of the podcast, what I've been doing is answering the question-- "How does a couples therapists learn to do that?" And I'm answering that question through actual couple interviews and then follow up interviews with consultants who help me to think through what happened in the room between me and that couple.

Today, we've got a consultation session with my colleague and mentor Patricia Hart.   

"We say in PACT, we're working on the relationship, right? Our job is the relationship, but of course, in order to have a couple of relationship there's important individual growth that goes with it. 

I have to be able to manage myself so that I can manage you and I have to be able to know what it is that I need from you and then I have to be able to ask for what I want. [So] I can be the person who can go after what I want, including in a relationship. And then also know about that well enough, so I can put [it] aside and deal with you.

So you know this developmental step of a two person psychology, which is necessary for a relationship? [It] requires a lot of individual growth. It seemed to me that's a lot of what you were doing with [Charley and Yael in this session]"

That is a quote from the interview that you're about to hear. It captures, the support that she gave me, the overall framework and an understanding of what I was up to in the session. So helpful. 

So who was Patricia Hart? Patricia's a long time Berkeley therapist with 40 years of experience. She's a PACT instructor, she's just wonderful with couples and she's a wonderful consultant. So, take a listen. Patricia Hart PhD and me talking about Charley and Yael. Thanks so much for tuning in 

 

Yael and Charley: How does a couples therapist help a young couple (Interview 2-PART 2)?

Hi, welcome to Human Nurture. I'm your host Jason Brand, couples therapists out of Berkeley, California. This is the second half of the second couple clinical interview with Charley and Yael in my office.  

So we pick the interview up at the point where Charley's describing the bind he finds himself in when he gets angry during conflicts with the Yael. He wants to communicate his frustrations so he can feel better and they can work conflicts out together, however, if he gets to fiery his delivery, Yael's only able to hear the anger and not the pain underneath. Charley fear's that tamping down his anger runs the risk of  losing his voice. (You will also remember, from the beginning of the interview, that Charlie feels that Yael does not do her internal work.) So from Charley's point of view, Yael gets overly focused on Charley's anger and does not look at her part in the conflict.  That leaves him as the only one who sees the challenge and is trying to process it.   He's left with a terrible choice, speak up in a way that alienates him from Yael or being heard in a way that does not address the injustice that he sees in the situation. This, you will hear has deep historical roots with his family and with his mom in particular and he also worries that it runs the risk of alienating him in the future from his daughters.

So, we pick it up at the bind. Charley and Yael interview 2 part 2 here we go.

 

Yael and Charley: How does a couples therapist help a young couple (Interview 2-PART 1)?

Hi there. You're listening to Human Nurture. I'm your host Jason Brand. A PACT Level 3 therapist out of Berkeley, California. And this season, we're asking the question, how does a couple's therapist learned to do that? So, we give you an insider's view into couples therapy and the consultation sessions between couples therapists. 

What you're about to hear is an actual couple talking about their experience, we call it a couple clinical interview. 

Let's get you grounded for this episode. It was recorded in my office because there was that brief window in COVID between the initial outbreak and the Delta spike, where people were actually coming in. And I was able to squeeze in a few sessions with Charley and Yael.

You'll hear the sound. It's a little rough in the beginning, we're getting settled.  I left that part in, because I think it's important for you to get a sense of the good rapport that I have with Charley and Yael. We're excited to see each other in person and you'll hear a genuine feeling of warmth and ease in the room. 

Before the session, I had a really helpful conversation with my colleague, Jeff Cohen. He's also a Level 3 PACT person in Berkeley. 

And Jeff gave me some good insights into how to bring forward the person in a relationship who says there's no room for their feelings.  So within this couple, Charley is the identified feeler, meaning that his feelings are often the ones seen as being too big to manage. 

But as we know in PACT-- where there's one, there's always the other. So one goal of mine in this session was to help them to look at how their current ways of managing feelings leaves them both alone with the feelings.

The challenge I had though, was that in the room, I also had to help Yael find her feelings and amplify them so that they could get expressed for the couple to hold. You'll hear me repeatedly slowing Yael down and really focusing on her experience Then, I'm going to cross question to Charlie about those feelings as  a way to amplify them further. 

That's enough to get you settled. Here we go, first, half couple clinical interview, Charley and Yael In my office.  

Yael and Charley: Consultation with Beth O’Brien, Licensed Psychologist

This is Human Nurture. I’m Jason Brand, a couples therapist and we are asking the question– “How does a couples therapist learn to do their Job?”  Today we’ve a consultant interview with Beth O’Brien. Beth is out of Fort Collins, Colorado. She’s a Level 3 PACT therapist, she’s a highly trained trauma therapist and I found out in the interview that she’s also a yoga teacher.

I’ve always known Beth to be a highly trained clinician and a relatable person, however, what stood out to me in this interview is her skills as a teacher. We unpack the Charley and Yael initial interview and look at concepts like - the window of tolerance, couple regulation strategies and trauma.  Beth does a great job of making these concepts understandable and (most importantly if you ask me) she explains them in the context of healing. So take a listen to my wonderful colleague and I discussing the first clinical interview with Charley and Yael.

Yael and Charley: How does a couples therapist help a young couple (Interview 1-PART 2)?

Welcome back to The Human Nurture Podcast where we ask the question– “How does a couples therapist learn to do that??!” I’m your host Jason Brand, a couples therapist trained in PACT - a Psychobiological Approach to Couples Therapy. Today, we are going to jump right into the second half of the first clinical interview with Charley and Yael. 

This episode is great because Charley and Yael paint a vivid picture of how early history impacts future relationships. Listen for how they regulate each other as the history comes to the surface, how they encourage openness, protect each other and present me with areas where they feel like they need the help of couples therapy.

That’s all you need to know... Here we go...

Yael and Charley: How does a couples therapist help a young couple?

Hello, and welcome to The Human Nurture Podcast. I'm Jason Brand a couples therapist from The City of Berkeley in The State of California and I'm your host. This season, we're asking the question– “How does a couples therapist learn to do that?!?” And we're doing it through long form interviews with actual couples and then feedback sessions where I sit down to talk about the couple with another PACT trained couples therapist (PACT stands for A Psychobiological Approach to Couples Therapy). 

In this episode, we are breaking the seal on a new couple. Charley and Yael, and they're going to actually lead us out of Season 2. 

Charley and Yael, it's hard to write their name without a smile.  You will hear from the first moment that they are a brave and trusting couple and so open to being helped. They are a young couple in their early thirties and they've come to do some braiding. What do I mean by braiding? Well, currently they've got some areas where things feel knotted up between them, it's hard to differentiate what belongs where. Our job is going to be integration. We're going to be trying to take all these different strands, make something more cohesive out of them and give Charley and Yael the tools to do this braiding as a team.

A few things you need to know for this first interview. First, we recorded over zoom and it's during the height of the 2020 Shelter in Place in the middle of the COVID pandemic. Charley is actually my barber. Actually, he's not my barber anymore, however, he would still be my barber if he hadn't moved to a new shop. (He's a great barber.)

Before this season of the podcast was recorded, while he was cutting my hair, I told Charley about my plan for the season. He showed some interest, he asked Yael and they agreed to participate. I had never met Yael before these interviews.

A few things that you should listen for in this interview. First, is that this is a great example of therapeutic alliance and the things that flow from it when it is strong and positive. The second is how the session moves back and forth between examples of current day relationship challenges and early experiences with families of origin. Also, how hard I work (sometimes gracefully, sometimes not so much) to help them to remain on even footing when it comes to their current and past relationship, strengths and challenges. 

So, I think that's what you need. I've got a bunch of interviews with Charlie and Yael and some really great consultant interviews coming up for you over the next few months. So settle in for the ride and… Off we go. 

Ron and Chakahier: Consultation with Daniel Weir, Psychoanalytic Psychotherapist

A NOTE FROM JASON:

Hello again, this is Jason Brand, the host of the Human Nurture Podcast. I'm a couples therapist in Berkeley, California and as you know, in this season, we've been exploring the “how to” of couples therapy. 

This episode is a little bit of a departure from the usual format. Editing my own interviews always comes along with some discomfort. After 30 some-odd episodes, I've gotten used to some of that discomfort, the discomfort of listening to myself and imagining how you might be hearing it. But as I edited the two interviews I recorded with John Guy, I noticed a different kind of discomfort and it was clearly because we were discussing race. 

I tried putting this discomfort into words with colleagues, however, I felt like something was missing in the conversation. With my colleagues of color, I felt like I was asking something of them that they couldn't really give to me, a kind of seal of approval that I was doing a good job. And with my white colleagues, I felt like the conversation kind of fell apart and just came back to this well-worn idea of “yeah, talking about race is challenging.” 

None of this is a comment about my colleagues. I see it 100% is my own need to do some thinking and to open up some locked areas inside myself. 

So I was settling into the idea that it was best just to leave this, that I'd take it up on my own, but not included as part of the podcast and that's when an article arrived from Inga Gentile. (You will remember Inga from a couple episodes back, please check out that episode, it's wonderful.)

The 2021 article entitled, “The White Man in the Room: Finding My Position as a White Therapist” was published by the British Journal of Psychotherapy and is written by Daniel Weir. It gave me a way to move forward and express some of the things that I was thinking about and wanted to bring to the podcast. 

The article helped me to see that my discomfort was most pronounced in the brief moments when I had to define my own racial identity as a white man. I can't say that I even noticed this discomfort in the interviews with John, I only saw it when I had to create something coherent in the editing process and only then it was in these brief flashes that I caught of myself. 

The article gave me some different tools for thinking about why it might be hard to see my own identity.  It also makes some great links to psychoanalytic ideas and provides some perspectives that I found immediately useful. 

So who is Daniel Weir? He's in private practice in Southwest London, this paper was written as part of his qualifying to become a psychoanalytic psychotherapist in 2020. I'm excited to have him on the show. He also said that you can email him directly if you want to read his paper.

His email is contact@daniel-weir.com.

Ron and Chakahier: (Third Interview) How does a couples therapist help a couple with drift?

A NOTE FROM JASON:

Hi again. Welcome back. If you've come here for an interview between an actual couple and an actual couples therapist and you're asking yourself the question, “How does a couples therapist learn to do that?” Well, you're in the right place. 

I’m Jason Brand, a Licensed Clinical Social Worker in Berkeley and a PACT Level Three therapist. This is Human Nurture. 

A couple of sentences to set the stage: Ron and Chakaheir, they've been married 33 years and they came in because they have drifted apart.  By this third interview, they've made real progress by articulating some of the lonely feelings and as you will hear in this episode, they're starting to find each other again. 

We've got two more episodes in the Ron and Chakahier series and then we move on to the next couple but let's not get ahead of things. It was such a pleasure getting to know Ron and Chakaheir and being allowed such an intimate view into their lives. 

I'd love to hear your thoughts. Feel free to reach out to me at jason@jasonbrand.com.

Ron and Chakahier: Second Consultation with John Guy, MA, LMHC

A NOTE FROM JASON:

Hi there. Welcome to the Human Nurture Podcast. I'm Jason Brand, a couples therapist and your host. This season we're interviewing couples and getting consultation from my fellow PACT therapists. 

The podcast gives you an insider's view into how a couples therapist learns to do their job. In this episode, I get another opportunity to sit down with my colleague, John Guy, to discuss the Ron and Chakahier episodes. 

John Guy, a couples therapist from Seattle, has a background in mindfulness and PACT. He's very helpful in providing consultation about how to identify and think about the ways nationality, religion, gender, race, class, and sexual orientation may add layers of challenge to life inside and outside of therapy.

In that first interview, I invited him to discuss the question, “How does a white couples therapist from Berkeley think about issues of race and culture with a black couple from Alabama?” I'm inviting him back to continue that discussion and because I love the way John positions himself as a therapist. He manages to be excited, serious, relaxed, authoritative, and accessible all at once. I've very much enjoyed both interviews with John and I'm excited to share this one with you. So what are we waiting for? Let's go.  

Ron and Chakahier: Consultation with Inga Gentile, Certified Clinical Psychologist and MFT

A NOTE FROM JASON:

Hi there. Time to get going on another leg of this season-long journey into “How does a couples therapist learn to do that?” I'm Jason Brand, this podcast is called Human Nurture and in this episode, I've got another wonderful PACT therapist along for the ride. My colleague Inga Gentile joins us from Oslo, Norway. Inga is a licensed MFT and a Licensed Clinical Psychologist. She's an original PACT faculty member and she's been studying with Stan Tatkin since the days of the original Calabasas study group.

Inga joins me to think about the second couple of the season, Ron and Chakahier. If you don't know, here you go… Married 33 years, their presenting challenge was that they drifted apart. In the first and second interviews, they ventured into this drift and found so much for us to discuss.

Inga and I start off talking about the mismanagement of Thirds and work our way towards a beautiful idea about how the drift has created a sense of timelessness between Ron and Chakahier and this means that at any moment, they can find each other again. 

Each consultant has given me a way of holding the PACT frame and I love Inga’s frame. She describes how close proximity triggers psychobiological reflexes, and this gives the information we need to do “Both/And”, showing what is between the couple and seeing what is possible for the couple. I'm getting excited thinking about my consultation with Inga, but enough telling, you can simply click play on the interview.